Reckon we could do far better in terms of intercity transit. From memory, there’s like two trains a day that go from Sydney-Melbourne and they take an insane amount of time to get there. Meanwhilst we have two major airlines that operate 180 seat aircraft every 1hr out of peak and every 15 minutes in peak periods between Sydney and Melbourne (1hr flight time) meaning there is at least 8 flights an hour during peak times and that’s not even considering the low cost carriers. Even with airport security and the travel time to get to the airport, flying is easily the best option and it’s not particularly close. That’s also not even factoring in other popular 1hr hops like Brisbane-Sydney. I couldn’t even tell you if there is a train service, but I can tell you that both major airlines operate 180 seat aircraft every 1hr off peak and every 30 min during peak periods, Now this works well for me, I’ve got my commercial licence and will be striving towards working for one of those airlines, but even I understand the lack of competitive train options on these really short trips means it’s just ingrained into Aussies that if you wanna travel over state borders to another major city, you’ll probably be flying.
A lot of other intercity trains are more or less tourisn adventures (The Ghan etc) and definitely not for a daily commute. I think within states, intercity transit is ok but it’s definitely not fast. Queensland has the Tilt Train, NSW has a number of regional services being run, and Victoria has V-Line.
The discussion over high speed rail between Sydney and Melbourne has been talked about a lot and the appetite for doing it has been no match for the geographical challenges associated with making it happen. I dunno how it compares to geography in Japan, but I wouldn’t ever accuse Japan of being a flat country (they seem to make high speed trains work). Even smaller projects to cut travel time might be beneficial, but I think the only way to make these trains competitive with flying is by using high speed rail.
In summary, another thing I think America might do better than Australia is intercity trains (especially in the North-east corridor) with Amtrak being a National Railway Operator that operates services throughout the country. Australia has more of a state-by-state approach (as evidenced by the different track gauges) but that doesn’t lend itself well to intercity services which cross state borders.
Great comment, the balkanized approach is a big problem for sure, perhaps a lot of the "regional" services should be operated on a national level and standardized more.
HSR will be very expensive in Australia because as you say it's mountainous, that being said - that is also true of Spain and Korea, two places where high speed rail has been extremely successful. If Aus decides to build it, it won't be easy but, it will be worthwhile!
I for what its worth would suggest the Japanese model, and entirely independent high speed line with high performance trains, is the best suited to Australia, being able to climb steep grades can reduce tunneling somewhat!
As of right now, it takes 10.5 hrs to get from Sydney to Melbourne on train which is just tragic (I could fly across the country in less time) so I definitely think it’ll be beneficial but neither major political party seems to have the appetite for it.
I want to add a more positive note and say that I think my hometown (Brisbane) does buses pretty well. The network is highly radial, but there are a lot of people living in suburbs in Brisbane who have access to a bus at least every 15min (10 min during peak periods). I lived for most of my childhood in a far flung suburb called Parkinson (essentially on the southern edge of Brisbane), and my family (who are pretty car oriented) always considered it the best option to catch the bus to get to the city. One, because of the lack of parking in the city (something Australia does well despite the widespread complaints of people who don’t realise the town planners are doing it intentionally), and two because it is really frequent. 15 min off peak and 5-10min during peak periods operating 7 days a week between 5am and 12am. There are also local services in Brisbane for those non-radial trips and they generally operate every 30min to 1hr and don’t usually operate on weekends (so not the best).
Brisbane also runs special event services. Just last weekend, I went to watch my favourite team, the Brisbane Lions, play an Aussie Rules match at the Gabba stadium. There’s basically no parking at the Gabba (hmm, it’s almost like it’s by design 🙂), so all 30,000 people who went are sent there by a bus, or sometimes train depending on what’s a better option. We had to drive to Carindale bus interchange where we caught the Gabba bus which got us to the game in about 20min. There’s also special event services from Eight Mile Plains, Chermside, and to the city itself. Oh by the way, those services, as well as all other bus and train services, are free if you hold a Match Ticket. They are literally begging you not to drive to the game it’s brilliant. So yeah, I’d say we do special event services pretty well as well.
The problem with the interstate rail services (and compared to Japan, Europe, etc) is that these are very large distances (1000 km approx) with very little in between, particularly if you are proposing high speed rail which would require a straightened route that would bypass most of the towns along the way. The result is that the airlines are ideally placed to provide this type of service and very little is to be gained in a cost vs benefit analysis in providing a high speed rail option. The infrequent and long rail services that do operate are not marketed or intended to be used for Sydney - Melbourne or Sydney - Brisbane travel. They are intended for regional passengers travelling between rural country towns to and from Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane.
Speaking of stadiums, Suncorp has that beaut bus station built into the basement, allows event shuttles to vomit out passengers into the stadium area, during the event the drivers park up in the nearby side streets that are closed off and turned into bus holding stands, all having Maccas for dinner next door, before starting the return shuttles, the station reconfigured in that time with those snaking queues to keep order as the stadium drains. Really efficient operation.
Apart from the BRTs, is the Brisbane bus network that good? I haven't been myself, but based off maps and timetables, it seems like it has a long way to go, even when compared to other Australian cities
If you want to see buses getting it done, come to Brisbane, where they have well over half the PT modeshare.
This goes beyond the busway network, which is definitely something to learn from (not always for the right reasons).
In the core of the metro area, starting about two decades ago, the city council has brought in a heap of bus routes on rapid transit principles: 15 minute service both ways 6am-11pm, with wider stop spacing. And they've ~doubled corridor patronage where they've done so.
Oh yeah Brisbane does its buses well! Stay tuned for coverage of the system soon!
I think the busways are good overall but, I am more mixed on them in growing cities (they are great as long as they aren't meant to replace rail or heavier forms of rapid transit)
The BUZ (Bus Upgrade Zone for anyone curious) services are absolutely super popular. Great example of build it and they will come. Also, the CityGliders while on the subject of buses done good, great branding. There’s two routes, blue and maroon, with a third gold one on the way, all the stops, shelters, and buses are specially coloured to match the route, featuring a cute little sugar glider character and distinctive ‘swoosh’ livery that stands out amongst a sea of buses in typical council colours. They’re frequent enough there’s no timetable on the stops too. Great advert for the service to see a big swooshy blue artic passing every five minutes in peak.
I won’t criticise the bus network for doing anything particularly wrong, but there are improvements I’d like to see, such as fewer buses going into the CBD. Sacrificing a one seat journey for commuters or such, to instead feed trunks like the BUZs, busways, and trains, freeing up buses to turn back and increase frequency in the suburbs, something that will be progressively done according to a network planner I had the luck to talk with at an information session about the draft 2024 plan. Man, the things I’d do as benevolent dictator.
The lesson I got from visiting Melbourne was for consolidation and having one strong agency do everything. This starts at the airport with a private company running the only public transit out. It's almost impossible to buy a transit card there because there's no reason to have one. And finding info online was almost impossible. I had to rely on blogs to figure out how to buy a ticket at the airport. For VLine buses you can't even use a transit or credit card, you need to buy a paper ticket from a *store* so the driver just let everyone fare evade.
Another example is for disruptions. They were running replacement buses for a metro line and it was absolutely awful. Google said route A, PTV said B (the private operator said C), locals said D or E).
Southern Cross is another good example. The AQI there is insane because it's covered and they're running DMUs but Metro is run by one operator, VLine another, the station is privately operated, etc. I doubt there's any chance of through running VLine with all this coordination but would love to be corrected.
I believe at least some V Line services through run but, I concur with everything you have mentioned . . . having many operators or agencies responsible for keeping a transport system running leads to tons of problems, especially when they are almost all customer facing.
That being said you do want balance, London appears to have a single agency in "Transport for London" but, they are actually more a coordinator who parcels out contracts to internal and external organizations for operations etc!
I have been ranting a lot lately about how embarrassing it is we have no high speed rail, it’s pretty shameful we lag behind the car dependant US even in this area. Brisbane-Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne is such a perfect corridor for HSR, with so many large population centres. Without factchecking I would feel reasonably comfortable saying at least half of Australia’s population live on the east coast between Brisbane and Melbourne (I did factcheck before posting, and am unsurprised to say I was correct). Sorely sorely missing. Like you said here Reece, Australia is pretty competent when it comes to railways, catching the train to the city is part of so many suburban Australians lives. Sydney to Melbourne is the busiest air corridor in Australia and also the fourth busiest in the world. I am positive you would be able to take traffic away from planes if there was a compelling rail alternative, as opposed to the existing meandering regional routes. It is a huge failing that we have not got onto this already.
I agree! I think the issue is the route is not easy but, nor were the routes in Japan or Korea - high speed rail just feels like a long term inevitability for Australia
Once traveled on it to Sydney from Brisbane. It’s a day trip down, and overnight returning. Traveled down in a seating coach, and in a sleeper on the return. Decent trip, would like to do it again. Our last long distance train trip was Brisbane to Longreach on the Spirit of the Outback, QR’s last train with sleeper compartments, very necessary on the two day trip each way.
Now I’m imagining we again copy the UK and get a fleet of Hitachi trains to improve the service. I remember when we travelled on it, 2012 or 13 I think, I loved it because it was a neat train ride, but it was definitely showing all seven signs of aging. Passengers could probably be divided into two groups, not flying because they’re going to a small regional area without an airport, or not flying because the train is a fun novelty.
A modernised XPT would be great, but they would need to spend a good deal on improving the route alignment, as even the current trains don’t get near their top in service speed on the current route. When you can drive Sydney to Brisbane in a bit over 9 hours, yet the train takes 2+ hours longer and the driving route mostly has a maximum speed of 110km/h vs the XPT being capable of 160km/h+ you just know that ultimately the train in use is not the cause of the slow times, but more than likely the overly twisty route is.
When they electrified the mainline between Brisbane and Rockhampton in the 1980s they did significant work to increase curve radius and reduce inclines. Before they introduced the tilt train on that route in the 90s it they did further alignment work, and that train still only does the route as fast as a car can. I don’t think any significant holistic route wide realignment work has been done Brisbane to Sydney at any time after the track was laid a over century ago.
That’s one of the reasons inter city high speed rail will be so expensive, we need a new rail corridor as well as the track, signalling and rolling stock, as the existing one is not usable for high speed rail. That said I think it should be an expense the various governments should wear and get on with building something.
If you're taking suggestions for future countries to look at for this series - I'd suggest the Netherlands and Argentina. The former because of how lauded the country is in transit and cycling circles and the latter because of how expansive it was, its legacy, and where it is now.
I wouldn't really call the existing Metro line in Sydney a real Metro. It's really a suburban (or "regional" in North American parlance) rail service that runs at a reasonably high frequency with a "metro" seat layout. The stations are several km apart (many further apart than those served by the traditional double decked legacy trains) and travel out 60 km into low density suburbs. The stations are served by huge carparks which all fill very quickly as the catchment area of each station is huge. This results in people not only driving to their nearest station, but when doing so finding it's carpark full and them driving up or down to other stations on the line trying to find a parking spot. When the line is extended in 2025 to replace the legacy trains on the Bankstown line - then the southern part of the line with more closely spaced stations and higher density will be able to be called a metro.
The distance from Central to Rouse Hill is more like 30 kilometers as the crow flies, which isn't so far off of the metros you see in other cities. Of course much of the area the system serves is suburban but, its the topology of the network, the style of trains, and the type of service that I would say defines the mode - and because of this I'd call even the currently operating segment "metro".
Why did Australia invest so much more in regional rail while North American cities are more subway/light rail focused? And who would win--Sydney Metro or the Montreal REM?
San Diego's Green Line, like Perth, diverges from the freeway to serve a university. The Trolley also has several special event lines. Stadium station even has three platforms, allowing for Spanish solution boarding--which will be useful as that station is getting 4,600 dwellings and 1.6M sq ft office space of TOD.
Reckon we could do far better in terms of intercity transit. From memory, there’s like two trains a day that go from Sydney-Melbourne and they take an insane amount of time to get there. Meanwhilst we have two major airlines that operate 180 seat aircraft every 1hr out of peak and every 15 minutes in peak periods between Sydney and Melbourne (1hr flight time) meaning there is at least 8 flights an hour during peak times and that’s not even considering the low cost carriers. Even with airport security and the travel time to get to the airport, flying is easily the best option and it’s not particularly close. That’s also not even factoring in other popular 1hr hops like Brisbane-Sydney. I couldn’t even tell you if there is a train service, but I can tell you that both major airlines operate 180 seat aircraft every 1hr off peak and every 30 min during peak periods, Now this works well for me, I’ve got my commercial licence and will be striving towards working for one of those airlines, but even I understand the lack of competitive train options on these really short trips means it’s just ingrained into Aussies that if you wanna travel over state borders to another major city, you’ll probably be flying.
A lot of other intercity trains are more or less tourisn adventures (The Ghan etc) and definitely not for a daily commute. I think within states, intercity transit is ok but it’s definitely not fast. Queensland has the Tilt Train, NSW has a number of regional services being run, and Victoria has V-Line.
The discussion over high speed rail between Sydney and Melbourne has been talked about a lot and the appetite for doing it has been no match for the geographical challenges associated with making it happen. I dunno how it compares to geography in Japan, but I wouldn’t ever accuse Japan of being a flat country (they seem to make high speed trains work). Even smaller projects to cut travel time might be beneficial, but I think the only way to make these trains competitive with flying is by using high speed rail.
In summary, another thing I think America might do better than Australia is intercity trains (especially in the North-east corridor) with Amtrak being a National Railway Operator that operates services throughout the country. Australia has more of a state-by-state approach (as evidenced by the different track gauges) but that doesn’t lend itself well to intercity services which cross state borders.
Great comment, the balkanized approach is a big problem for sure, perhaps a lot of the "regional" services should be operated on a national level and standardized more.
HSR will be very expensive in Australia because as you say it's mountainous, that being said - that is also true of Spain and Korea, two places where high speed rail has been extremely successful. If Aus decides to build it, it won't be easy but, it will be worthwhile!
I for what its worth would suggest the Japanese model, and entirely independent high speed line with high performance trains, is the best suited to Australia, being able to climb steep grades can reduce tunneling somewhat!
As of right now, it takes 10.5 hrs to get from Sydney to Melbourne on train which is just tragic (I could fly across the country in less time) so I definitely think it’ll be beneficial but neither major political party seems to have the appetite for it.
I want to add a more positive note and say that I think my hometown (Brisbane) does buses pretty well. The network is highly radial, but there are a lot of people living in suburbs in Brisbane who have access to a bus at least every 15min (10 min during peak periods). I lived for most of my childhood in a far flung suburb called Parkinson (essentially on the southern edge of Brisbane), and my family (who are pretty car oriented) always considered it the best option to catch the bus to get to the city. One, because of the lack of parking in the city (something Australia does well despite the widespread complaints of people who don’t realise the town planners are doing it intentionally), and two because it is really frequent. 15 min off peak and 5-10min during peak periods operating 7 days a week between 5am and 12am. There are also local services in Brisbane for those non-radial trips and they generally operate every 30min to 1hr and don’t usually operate on weekends (so not the best).
Brisbane also runs special event services. Just last weekend, I went to watch my favourite team, the Brisbane Lions, play an Aussie Rules match at the Gabba stadium. There’s basically no parking at the Gabba (hmm, it’s almost like it’s by design 🙂), so all 30,000 people who went are sent there by a bus, or sometimes train depending on what’s a better option. We had to drive to Carindale bus interchange where we caught the Gabba bus which got us to the game in about 20min. There’s also special event services from Eight Mile Plains, Chermside, and to the city itself. Oh by the way, those services, as well as all other bus and train services, are free if you hold a Match Ticket. They are literally begging you not to drive to the game it’s brilliant. So yeah, I’d say we do special event services pretty well as well.
The problem with the interstate rail services (and compared to Japan, Europe, etc) is that these are very large distances (1000 km approx) with very little in between, particularly if you are proposing high speed rail which would require a straightened route that would bypass most of the towns along the way. The result is that the airlines are ideally placed to provide this type of service and very little is to be gained in a cost vs benefit analysis in providing a high speed rail option. The infrequent and long rail services that do operate are not marketed or intended to be used for Sydney - Melbourne or Sydney - Brisbane travel. They are intended for regional passengers travelling between rural country towns to and from Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane.
Speaking of stadiums, Suncorp has that beaut bus station built into the basement, allows event shuttles to vomit out passengers into the stadium area, during the event the drivers park up in the nearby side streets that are closed off and turned into bus holding stands, all having Maccas for dinner next door, before starting the return shuttles, the station reconfigured in that time with those snaking queues to keep order as the stadium drains. Really efficient operation.
Apart from the BRTs, is the Brisbane bus network that good? I haven't been myself, but based off maps and timetables, it seems like it has a long way to go, even when compared to other Australian cities
https://melbourneontransit.blogspot.com/2021/11/the-state-capital-with-worst-public.html?m=1
If you want to see buses getting it done, come to Brisbane, where they have well over half the PT modeshare.
This goes beyond the busway network, which is definitely something to learn from (not always for the right reasons).
In the core of the metro area, starting about two decades ago, the city council has brought in a heap of bus routes on rapid transit principles: 15 minute service both ways 6am-11pm, with wider stop spacing. And they've ~doubled corridor patronage where they've done so.
Oh yeah Brisbane does its buses well! Stay tuned for coverage of the system soon!
I think the busways are good overall but, I am more mixed on them in growing cities (they are great as long as they aren't meant to replace rail or heavier forms of rapid transit)
The BUZ (Bus Upgrade Zone for anyone curious) services are absolutely super popular. Great example of build it and they will come. Also, the CityGliders while on the subject of buses done good, great branding. There’s two routes, blue and maroon, with a third gold one on the way, all the stops, shelters, and buses are specially coloured to match the route, featuring a cute little sugar glider character and distinctive ‘swoosh’ livery that stands out amongst a sea of buses in typical council colours. They’re frequent enough there’s no timetable on the stops too. Great advert for the service to see a big swooshy blue artic passing every five minutes in peak.
I won’t criticise the bus network for doing anything particularly wrong, but there are improvements I’d like to see, such as fewer buses going into the CBD. Sacrificing a one seat journey for commuters or such, to instead feed trunks like the BUZs, busways, and trains, freeing up buses to turn back and increase frequency in the suburbs, something that will be progressively done according to a network planner I had the luck to talk with at an information session about the draft 2024 plan. Man, the things I’d do as benevolent dictator.
The lesson I got from visiting Melbourne was for consolidation and having one strong agency do everything. This starts at the airport with a private company running the only public transit out. It's almost impossible to buy a transit card there because there's no reason to have one. And finding info online was almost impossible. I had to rely on blogs to figure out how to buy a ticket at the airport. For VLine buses you can't even use a transit or credit card, you need to buy a paper ticket from a *store* so the driver just let everyone fare evade.
Another example is for disruptions. They were running replacement buses for a metro line and it was absolutely awful. Google said route A, PTV said B (the private operator said C), locals said D or E).
Southern Cross is another good example. The AQI there is insane because it's covered and they're running DMUs but Metro is run by one operator, VLine another, the station is privately operated, etc. I doubt there's any chance of through running VLine with all this coordination but would love to be corrected.
I believe at least some V Line services through run but, I concur with everything you have mentioned . . . having many operators or agencies responsible for keeping a transport system running leads to tons of problems, especially when they are almost all customer facing.
That being said you do want balance, London appears to have a single agency in "Transport for London" but, they are actually more a coordinator who parcels out contracts to internal and external organizations for operations etc!
I have been ranting a lot lately about how embarrassing it is we have no high speed rail, it’s pretty shameful we lag behind the car dependant US even in this area. Brisbane-Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne is such a perfect corridor for HSR, with so many large population centres. Without factchecking I would feel reasonably comfortable saying at least half of Australia’s population live on the east coast between Brisbane and Melbourne (I did factcheck before posting, and am unsurprised to say I was correct). Sorely sorely missing. Like you said here Reece, Australia is pretty competent when it comes to railways, catching the train to the city is part of so many suburban Australians lives. Sydney to Melbourne is the busiest air corridor in Australia and also the fourth busiest in the world. I am positive you would be able to take traffic away from planes if there was a compelling rail alternative, as opposed to the existing meandering regional routes. It is a huge failing that we have not got onto this already.
I agree! I think the issue is the route is not easy but, nor were the routes in Japan or Korea - high speed rail just feels like a long term inevitability for Australia
Not too long I hope. I need fast and frequent trains so I can get to Melbourne and play with the trams on a long weekend or such!
I love the XPT in Australia, based on the HST here in the UK (which is sadly being phased out.)
Once traveled on it to Sydney from Brisbane. It’s a day trip down, and overnight returning. Traveled down in a seating coach, and in a sleeper on the return. Decent trip, would like to do it again. Our last long distance train trip was Brisbane to Longreach on the Spirit of the Outback, QR’s last train with sleeper compartments, very necessary on the two day trip each way.
I would love to see a modernized XPT service, that would be exciting. Perhaps they could speed it up and cut those trip times too.
Now I’m imagining we again copy the UK and get a fleet of Hitachi trains to improve the service. I remember when we travelled on it, 2012 or 13 I think, I loved it because it was a neat train ride, but it was definitely showing all seven signs of aging. Passengers could probably be divided into two groups, not flying because they’re going to a small regional area without an airport, or not flying because the train is a fun novelty.
A modernised XPT would be great, but they would need to spend a good deal on improving the route alignment, as even the current trains don’t get near their top in service speed on the current route. When you can drive Sydney to Brisbane in a bit over 9 hours, yet the train takes 2+ hours longer and the driving route mostly has a maximum speed of 110km/h vs the XPT being capable of 160km/h+ you just know that ultimately the train in use is not the cause of the slow times, but more than likely the overly twisty route is.
When they electrified the mainline between Brisbane and Rockhampton in the 1980s they did significant work to increase curve radius and reduce inclines. Before they introduced the tilt train on that route in the 90s it they did further alignment work, and that train still only does the route as fast as a car can. I don’t think any significant holistic route wide realignment work has been done Brisbane to Sydney at any time after the track was laid a over century ago.
That’s one of the reasons inter city high speed rail will be so expensive, we need a new rail corridor as well as the track, signalling and rolling stock, as the existing one is not usable for high speed rail. That said I think it should be an expense the various governments should wear and get on with building something.
If you're taking suggestions for future countries to look at for this series - I'd suggest the Netherlands and Argentina. The former because of how lauded the country is in transit and cycling circles and the latter because of how expansive it was, its legacy, and where it is now.
I wouldn't really call the existing Metro line in Sydney a real Metro. It's really a suburban (or "regional" in North American parlance) rail service that runs at a reasonably high frequency with a "metro" seat layout. The stations are several km apart (many further apart than those served by the traditional double decked legacy trains) and travel out 60 km into low density suburbs. The stations are served by huge carparks which all fill very quickly as the catchment area of each station is huge. This results in people not only driving to their nearest station, but when doing so finding it's carpark full and them driving up or down to other stations on the line trying to find a parking spot. When the line is extended in 2025 to replace the legacy trains on the Bankstown line - then the southern part of the line with more closely spaced stations and higher density will be able to be called a metro.
The distance from Central to Rouse Hill is more like 30 kilometers as the crow flies, which isn't so far off of the metros you see in other cities. Of course much of the area the system serves is suburban but, its the topology of the network, the style of trains, and the type of service that I would say defines the mode - and because of this I'd call even the currently operating segment "metro".
Why did Australia invest so much more in regional rail while North American cities are more subway/light rail focused? And who would win--Sydney Metro or the Montreal REM?
San Diego's Green Line, like Perth, diverges from the freeway to serve a university. The Trolley also has several special event lines. Stadium station even has three platforms, allowing for Spanish solution boarding--which will be useful as that station is getting 4,600 dwellings and 1.6M sq ft office space of TOD.