OL is not really the poster-child for a good design lol.
And the OL is on a fully-separate right of way, whereas Eglinton has to deal with cars crossing the tracks over much of its length. It's trivial to automate something like the OL. It is not trivial to automate a train that has to deal with car traffic crossing in front of it.
I think Jack is suggesting that the sections of Line 5 on the surface should have instead been built underground or elevated, and that the line should have been automated metro rather than a tramway line. It’s impossible (at least with current tried and true technology) to automate street-running trams.
I think that we should have the parts on grade to be also underground, but my opinion might not be popular. That could also mean other TTC trains can run on it
The Ontario Line is a metro, it has its own tracks and no road crossings. Do you trust automation enough to recognize ALL traffic lights? They might recognize the wrong one and not notice the transit signal and get into an accident, or a car might be crossing their right of way illegally and the Ontario Line automation would not expect that.
When it comes to capacity issues and the development it is spurring it’s important to note just how big the divide is between what was expected and what is happening. Even the wildest Keesmaatian urbanist fantasy of the mid-00’s fell way short of what is being seen.
When you consider the very recent MZO’s that are allowing for taller, denser buildings, improved transit across the entire city, and a demand curve that hasn’t let up, it is possible that Crosstown alone could add another 250,000+ homes along Eglinton (and that number is probably an underestimate). If you had said in the mid-00’s that the population along Eglinton could increase by 500,000 (or more) just because of one transit line few people would have taken that seriously.
Crosstown is in many ways a disaster and there is a lot to criticize about it and learn from. Capacity issues due to new development is the only part of the project I’d consider giving a pass on simply because I don’t think anyone predicted the influence it would have.
I lean in the direction of it being a natural place to go big because it extends so long. In the optimal scenario Eglinton actually seems like the place to build a local express subway like Seoul Line 9 because if the capacity and speed was there I see no reason for the line not to extend from the edge of Scarborough well into Peel!
Capacity issues should have been seen when designing this project.
Yonge-University is jammed with high rises and building a cross town line will inevitably result in diversion away from Bloor.
And even if we didn't see demand along Eglinton rising so quickly and before the line was finished, Eglinton is the only ROW that isn't broken by the Don Valley for 8km between Bloor and York Mills.
Not building in 30K ppdph capacity from the start is irresponsible.
The only other viable crosstown route is Lawrence, and there you'd have the wealthy ULTRA nimbys of the Bridal Path and Lawrence Park to fight.
I’m not saying the design for Crosstown is good. I would actually say that it’s pretty bad. But, the plans would have been drawn up 20 years ago at this point, and I think it’s important to remember that the context in which that was done wasn’t the same as today. Yellowfield development and TOD were still the wishful thinking hopes and dreams of centrist/big L Liberal urbanists. LRT was all the rage and the P3 model was seen as the future of transit building.
Add to the “just put a train on it” or “yeah it’s not the best but it’s better than nothing and the only thing that will get approval” mentality towards transit at the time. A lot of people, transit supporters included, turned a blind eye to design concerns in favour of just getting a new line on a map. Crosstown probably could have used more push back at the time. In some cases, like Ottawas Line 2/Trillium Line/whatever they are calling it this week, plans should have been burned and buried instead of flushing 1 billion dollars down the drain. Many projects today are a product of that kind of thinking and now the consequences are being felt.
That doesn’t necessarily excuse Crosstown’s bad design. But it is a big part of why the project ended up in its current state and there is little doubt that if it were designed today a lot would be done differently (I would hope...though let’s be honest it would probably still be bad, just in a different way).
In the end all that matters at this point is that lessons were learned and most importantly that they simply get the line open and have it work. Crosstown is problematic enough. But if it opens and it is like the broken Ottawa LRT line that barely functions and has ruined transit in that city it will be so much worse. As imperfect as Crosstown is, it will still be an improvement (if it functions reliably).
To your point about ultra wealthy neighbourhoods and a Lawrence line, I would say stranger things have happened. Ending exclusionary zoning was not popular among a lot of people just one strata below the Bridal Path types. But it still happened. At the end of the day if a Lawrence line were proposed, and there was enough money to be made by developers and other capitalists, it could happen. The real estate industry swings a big axe in Ontario and if they are on board with a transit project it’s basically game over for anyone opposing it.
The capacity challenges for Line 5 are gonna make it even more vital to get the Line 4 extension right. As for the all-white stations, hopefully there's an inexpensive way to make them less so.
Lots of stations in China have all-white looks with bright lights and have been fine so far, so it's just a matter of having the funding needed for frequent cleaning
Yeah they are soon going to recognize that it is a problem and will have to fix it. I don't think that a bunch of paint is expensive but it will cause some disruptions and overall just shows a lack of foresight. After waiting so long people are going to be frustrated at having more disruptions.
Scarborough always loses in transit news. It’s not like connecting to on if the busiest subway stations and bus terminals at Kennedy warrants a high quality connection or anything. No it gets tram with half of trains turning back before even getting there. 🫠
Well said. Considering the popularity of your YT channel, I would hope that the media would reach out to you when discussing transit.
Is there anyway to upgrade the LRT to a metro system (subway or light metro like the Skytrain) now that is almost fully built?
They may need to get rid of certain stations in order to improve frequency (IE Ionview and Hakimi-Lebovic).
I used to take the TTC bus from Kennedy to Don Mills along Eglinton in 2017, it was such a slow ride and a high speed and high frequency line is definitely needed along that section. It's unfortunate those people are getting shafted.
If it was me in charge I'd be trying to look at higher capacity vehicles, and if moving to high platforms was possible. They would ideally also be wider.
I really hope the surface portion can be converted in the future with active signal priority, railway crossing barriers, bigger fencing around it to stop trespassers (Like 3-4 meters tall, not the regular ones that are there now), and everything we can do to make it as seamless as possible. I know it's unlikely in the short term, but after everyone realizes how much was spent for what's now not fully grade separated, there should be enough outrage to do small things (Small compared to tunneling) to make it seamless.
Agreed. They would obviously have to shut down the eastern end of the LRT to build the guideway (I would assume anyway), but it would be worth it in the long run. I think many will be asking for it to be grade separated when they see how much slower the eastern section is compared to the tunneled portion.
I know this is an extremely minor detail, but when stating the populations of cities in Northern Europe I don't know about the others, but the number for Odense was wrong. The only reason I noticed this is because I am half danish and know the island that Odense is on fairly well. It seems you replaced the population of Odense, around 200,000 people, with the population of the whole island, of around 500,000 people.
No problem, it does kinda make sense to me that it is the whole island because I know that there are people that commute in from large parts of the island, but I still wouldn't consider it the population of Odense as the whole island because the commuting population is not that large especially when you get to the edges with the other larger towns. It seems to me it might be kind of like how metro Honolulu is all of Oahu.
I have been screaming this on Urbantoronto but really this was such a blown opportunity.
A cross-town connector on the ROW that isn't broken by the Don Valley between Bloor and York Mills.
If we were going to spend this much money on this project, dig subway sized tunnels; it should always have been high capacity subway, maybe even quad track it so branches can run along Lawrence.
The tunnels are large enough for subway trains - they are slightly larger than those for the York Subway extension! The only problem honestly is the platform height (and width) and the vehicles!
Former Premier Mike Harris (master of his apprentice, current Premier Doug Ford) cancelled the Eglinton West subway around 1995. Wonder if they would have had the same problems extended the heavy rail eastward from Eglinton West/Allen Road/Cedarvale station (or whatever), if they kept it as a heavy rail subway?
The problems at Yonge seem mostly inevitable. But maybe things would have been better if they had happened a decade or two earlier. Less development, less congestion
This should have been built as an automated line just like the Ontario Line.
OL is not really the poster-child for a good design lol.
And the OL is on a fully-separate right of way, whereas Eglinton has to deal with cars crossing the tracks over much of its length. It's trivial to automate something like the OL. It is not trivial to automate a train that has to deal with car traffic crossing in front of it.
I think Jack is suggesting that the sections of Line 5 on the surface should have instead been built underground or elevated, and that the line should have been automated metro rather than a tramway line. It’s impossible (at least with current tried and true technology) to automate street-running trams.
I think that we should have the parts on grade to be also underground, but my opinion might not be popular. That could also mean other TTC trains can run on it
Don't think anyone (except Metrolinx) would argue with that...
The Ontario Line is a metro, it has its own tracks and no road crossings. Do you trust automation enough to recognize ALL traffic lights? They might recognize the wrong one and not notice the transit signal and get into an accident, or a car might be crossing their right of way illegally and the Ontario Line automation would not expect that.
When it comes to capacity issues and the development it is spurring it’s important to note just how big the divide is between what was expected and what is happening. Even the wildest Keesmaatian urbanist fantasy of the mid-00’s fell way short of what is being seen.
When you consider the very recent MZO’s that are allowing for taller, denser buildings, improved transit across the entire city, and a demand curve that hasn’t let up, it is possible that Crosstown alone could add another 250,000+ homes along Eglinton (and that number is probably an underestimate). If you had said in the mid-00’s that the population along Eglinton could increase by 500,000 (or more) just because of one transit line few people would have taken that seriously.
Crosstown is in many ways a disaster and there is a lot to criticize about it and learn from. Capacity issues due to new development is the only part of the project I’d consider giving a pass on simply because I don’t think anyone predicted the influence it would have.
I lean in the direction of it being a natural place to go big because it extends so long. In the optimal scenario Eglinton actually seems like the place to build a local express subway like Seoul Line 9 because if the capacity and speed was there I see no reason for the line not to extend from the edge of Scarborough well into Peel!
Capacity issues should have been seen when designing this project.
Yonge-University is jammed with high rises and building a cross town line will inevitably result in diversion away from Bloor.
And even if we didn't see demand along Eglinton rising so quickly and before the line was finished, Eglinton is the only ROW that isn't broken by the Don Valley for 8km between Bloor and York Mills.
Not building in 30K ppdph capacity from the start is irresponsible.
The only other viable crosstown route is Lawrence, and there you'd have the wealthy ULTRA nimbys of the Bridal Path and Lawrence Park to fight.
I’m not saying the design for Crosstown is good. I would actually say that it’s pretty bad. But, the plans would have been drawn up 20 years ago at this point, and I think it’s important to remember that the context in which that was done wasn’t the same as today. Yellowfield development and TOD were still the wishful thinking hopes and dreams of centrist/big L Liberal urbanists. LRT was all the rage and the P3 model was seen as the future of transit building.
Add to the “just put a train on it” or “yeah it’s not the best but it’s better than nothing and the only thing that will get approval” mentality towards transit at the time. A lot of people, transit supporters included, turned a blind eye to design concerns in favour of just getting a new line on a map. Crosstown probably could have used more push back at the time. In some cases, like Ottawas Line 2/Trillium Line/whatever they are calling it this week, plans should have been burned and buried instead of flushing 1 billion dollars down the drain. Many projects today are a product of that kind of thinking and now the consequences are being felt.
That doesn’t necessarily excuse Crosstown’s bad design. But it is a big part of why the project ended up in its current state and there is little doubt that if it were designed today a lot would be done differently (I would hope...though let’s be honest it would probably still be bad, just in a different way).
In the end all that matters at this point is that lessons were learned and most importantly that they simply get the line open and have it work. Crosstown is problematic enough. But if it opens and it is like the broken Ottawa LRT line that barely functions and has ruined transit in that city it will be so much worse. As imperfect as Crosstown is, it will still be an improvement (if it functions reliably).
To your point about ultra wealthy neighbourhoods and a Lawrence line, I would say stranger things have happened. Ending exclusionary zoning was not popular among a lot of people just one strata below the Bridal Path types. But it still happened. At the end of the day if a Lawrence line were proposed, and there was enough money to be made by developers and other capitalists, it could happen. The real estate industry swings a big axe in Ontario and if they are on board with a transit project it’s basically game over for anyone opposing it.
The capacity challenges for Line 5 are gonna make it even more vital to get the Line 4 extension right. As for the all-white stations, hopefully there's an inexpensive way to make them less so.
They may put some sort of easily washable coating on it - I hope they do!
Lots of stations in China have all-white looks with bright lights and have been fine so far, so it's just a matter of having the funding needed for frequent cleaning
Yeah they are soon going to recognize that it is a problem and will have to fix it. I don't think that a bunch of paint is expensive but it will cause some disruptions and overall just shows a lack of foresight. After waiting so long people are going to be frustrated at having more disruptions.
Scarborough always loses in transit news. It’s not like connecting to on if the busiest subway stations and bus terminals at Kennedy warrants a high quality connection or anything. No it gets tram with half of trains turning back before even getting there. 🫠
Ey, Scarborough has good bus service, is getting Eglinton, L2E and all the GO Improvements. The biggest thing Scarborough needs is some road diets!
Isn’t Scarborough getting the subway extension it demanded?
Well said. Considering the popularity of your YT channel, I would hope that the media would reach out to you when discussing transit.
Is there anyway to upgrade the LRT to a metro system (subway or light metro like the Skytrain) now that is almost fully built?
They may need to get rid of certain stations in order to improve frequency (IE Ionview and Hakimi-Lebovic).
I used to take the TTC bus from Kennedy to Don Mills along Eglinton in 2017, it was such a slow ride and a high speed and high frequency line is definitely needed along that section. It's unfortunate those people are getting shafted.
If it was me in charge I'd be trying to look at higher capacity vehicles, and if moving to high platforms was possible. They would ideally also be wider.
I really hope the surface portion can be converted in the future with active signal priority, railway crossing barriers, bigger fencing around it to stop trespassers (Like 3-4 meters tall, not the regular ones that are there now), and everything we can do to make it as seamless as possible. I know it's unlikely in the short term, but after everyone realizes how much was spent for what's now not fully grade separated, there should be enough outrage to do small things (Small compared to tunneling) to make it seamless.
Honestly I see more resistance to the look of crossing gates and big fences as you've suggested than just elevating it
Really the surface portions need to be elevated to fully grade separate them.
Agreed. They would obviously have to shut down the eastern end of the LRT to build the guideway (I would assume anyway), but it would be worth it in the long run. I think many will be asking for it to be grade separated when they see how much slower the eastern section is compared to the tunneled portion.
If you have the space to put a surface running tram down the middle of the street, you have the space to build an elevated guideway,
I know this is an extremely minor detail, but when stating the populations of cities in Northern Europe I don't know about the others, but the number for Odense was wrong. The only reason I noticed this is because I am half danish and know the island that Odense is on fairly well. It seems you replaced the population of Odense, around 200,000 people, with the population of the whole island, of around 500,000 people.
I pulled the metro area number which weirdly for Odense is the whole island (I suppose its not that big). I will correct.
No problem, it does kinda make sense to me that it is the whole island because I know that there are people that commute in from large parts of the island, but I still wouldn't consider it the population of Odense as the whole island because the commuting population is not that large especially when you get to the edges with the other larger towns. It seems to me it might be kind of like how metro Honolulu is all of Oahu.
Have you written an article or made a video on transit futureproofing when it comes to capacity?
Nope, but I have a video!
https://youtu.be/CiTjlcv_1IU?si=sD-9hJ5nRivoAxQf
Reminder that I won't be on Substack anymore - please find me at: https://reecemartin.ca/
thanks!
The LRT is a compromise by a government trying to save money and not property planning for future growth it seems.
I don't really think so, its not saving money - those U/G stations are big!
I have been screaming this on Urbantoronto but really this was such a blown opportunity.
A cross-town connector on the ROW that isn't broken by the Don Valley between Bloor and York Mills.
If we were going to spend this much money on this project, dig subway sized tunnels; it should always have been high capacity subway, maybe even quad track it so branches can run along Lawrence.
The tunnels are large enough for subway trains - they are slightly larger than those for the York Subway extension! The only problem honestly is the platform height (and width) and the vehicles!
Ontario Line's getting narrow toy trains too, so we have no intention of getting back to future-proofing right now
They are not narrow - they are quite substantial.
Former Premier Mike Harris (master of his apprentice, current Premier Doug Ford) cancelled the Eglinton West subway around 1995. Wonder if they would have had the same problems extended the heavy rail eastward from Eglinton West/Allen Road/Cedarvale station (or whatever), if they kept it as a heavy rail subway?
The problems at Yonge seem mostly inevitable. But maybe things would have been better if they had happened a decade or two earlier. Less development, less congestion
Similar issues with capacity and lack of future-proofing are being planned into the Ontario Line.
Probably, but they are far less extreme.
Top tip, don't costs in the short term as they'll come back to bite you in the future.