Not a fan of fare gates, maybe because I grew up without them and know from decades of experience that you can run transit just fine without them. They need a _ton_ of space in station concourses, they slow down everything down, they are a nightmare for people with children, baggage, strollers or bikes. Or wheelchairs. Let's get just get rid of them.
I don't think they need to be bad (Japan has excellent ones that aren't really inconvenient) but our inability to implement a good solution is a big factor
Bart-Muni along market is probably the most ridiculous non-integration I've seen. Both high use, highly transfered station that you have to escalator to grade (while watching the other mode pass by the escalator, back into fare area, and the back down to the other station that you've already passed.
Not to mention how totally confusing it is that there are two separate systems (3-4 if you count the trams and buses above ground) in the same station with the same fare payment method, but different fare payment structures (BART being by zones, MUNI being flat fares). Multiple times while taking transit in SF I was approached by people who were at the BART platform trying to get on a MUNI train, and vice-versa. They need to make the whole system more intuitive to understand, because overall it is quite decent.
Great post Reece! It’s refreshing to see someone admitting they’ve changed their mind on something. A couple of thoughts:
1) LCD screens can be more legible, making them better for people with reduced mobility and tourists less familiar with the language.
2) What are your thoughts on a blend of fare gates and proof of payment? This is the case on much of the National Rail network in the UK, where big stations have a gateline but smaller stations rely on proof of payment. I think this offers the best of both as it allows smaller stations with a lower upfront cost but also better enforcement of tickets than just proof of payment.
3) I have to admit I’ve never heard of integrated transfers with grade separation. The closest thing to it I think in London is the DLR-Underground interchange at Bank but I can’t think of anywhere this is used with buses as all London buses have oyster pads at the front and you must have already tapped out of any other mode you’re using to avoid a penalty fare.
The integrated grade separated transfers can be amazing, for example from BRT to Subway at Vaughan Station you don't have to cross a road and are fully weather protected the whole time! But, they should only be used where its practical and where you have the money to do it right. I think the same probably applies to faregates as you point out!
Good post Reece. As a Londoner, gate lines are just something you get used to. I’d say that for some places yes they can feel a little unnecessary (there are occasional places where they are not present at all and thus have touch points. But the issue with having touch points is that you can forget to touch out of the system resulting in a maximum fare regardless of how far you went.
Further if you are looking at a large or particularly busy station for commuters, a gate line can be an essential part of their crowd control as it provides a natural bottleneck while also providing a natural gathering point for staff members so that passengers can find them easily.
I see your point about needing more flow points however you can have very small stations with gate lines (see Covent Garden station, 1 short flight of stairs then an elevator straight to a surface building that is essentially one big gate line.
Fare gate free countries generally also have touch point type systems for single trips where you validate your ticket in a small machine before each ride. The date, time and station name are subsequently printed on your ticket. Once that happens you usually have about an hour to reach any destination you want (Although usually the tickets are separated into zones). There is no need to check out. In theory that process could be digitized.
I really appreciate you being open about reconsidering opinions as I think it is really valuable these days. The only concern I have with removing fare gates is in Melbourne where I used to live the ticket inspectors had a reputation of being thugs (not something you usually come across in Australia) and even if you had touched on them coming through the train I was always a bit nervous
Not a fan of fare gates, maybe because I grew up without them and know from decades of experience that you can run transit just fine without them. They need a _ton_ of space in station concourses, they slow down everything down, they are a nightmare for people with children, baggage, strollers or bikes. Or wheelchairs. Let's get just get rid of them.
And when I say "fare gates" I mean any form of gate that physically blocks access to transit. No matter if doors, wings, turnstiles, whatever.
I don't think they need to be bad (Japan has excellent ones that aren't really inconvenient) but our inability to implement a good solution is a big factor
Bart-Muni along market is probably the most ridiculous non-integration I've seen. Both high use, highly transfered station that you have to escalator to grade (while watching the other mode pass by the escalator, back into fare area, and the back down to the other station that you've already passed.
Yeah, I definitely think the psychology of these experiences needs to be considered way more. Seeing the other trains going by is REALLY bad!
Not to mention how totally confusing it is that there are two separate systems (3-4 if you count the trams and buses above ground) in the same station with the same fare payment method, but different fare payment structures (BART being by zones, MUNI being flat fares). Multiple times while taking transit in SF I was approached by people who were at the BART platform trying to get on a MUNI train, and vice-versa. They need to make the whole system more intuitive to understand, because overall it is quite decent.
Great post Reece! It’s refreshing to see someone admitting they’ve changed their mind on something. A couple of thoughts:
1) LCD screens can be more legible, making them better for people with reduced mobility and tourists less familiar with the language.
2) What are your thoughts on a blend of fare gates and proof of payment? This is the case on much of the National Rail network in the UK, where big stations have a gateline but smaller stations rely on proof of payment. I think this offers the best of both as it allows smaller stations with a lower upfront cost but also better enforcement of tickets than just proof of payment.
3) I have to admit I’ve never heard of integrated transfers with grade separation. The closest thing to it I think in London is the DLR-Underground interchange at Bank but I can’t think of anywhere this is used with buses as all London buses have oyster pads at the front and you must have already tapped out of any other mode you’re using to avoid a penalty fare.
The integrated grade separated transfers can be amazing, for example from BRT to Subway at Vaughan Station you don't have to cross a road and are fully weather protected the whole time! But, they should only be used where its practical and where you have the money to do it right. I think the same probably applies to faregates as you point out!
London makes extensive use of Out of Station Transfers to provide integrated fares between different systems and transfers at nearby stations.
Yep and it's a good use of them!
Good post Reece. As a Londoner, gate lines are just something you get used to. I’d say that for some places yes they can feel a little unnecessary (there are occasional places where they are not present at all and thus have touch points. But the issue with having touch points is that you can forget to touch out of the system resulting in a maximum fare regardless of how far you went.
Further if you are looking at a large or particularly busy station for commuters, a gate line can be an essential part of their crowd control as it provides a natural bottleneck while also providing a natural gathering point for staff members so that passengers can find them easily.
I see your point about needing more flow points however you can have very small stations with gate lines (see Covent Garden station, 1 short flight of stairs then an elevator straight to a surface building that is essentially one big gate line.
The problem is that Covent Garden (and Camden Town) can end up being exit only at busy times as it can't cope with passenger numbers.
Fare gate free countries generally also have touch point type systems for single trips where you validate your ticket in a small machine before each ride. The date, time and station name are subsequently printed on your ticket. Once that happens you usually have about an hour to reach any destination you want (Although usually the tickets are separated into zones). There is no need to check out. In theory that process could be digitized.
I really appreciate you being open about reconsidering opinions as I think it is really valuable these days. The only concern I have with removing fare gates is in Melbourne where I used to live the ticket inspectors had a reputation of being thugs (not something you usually come across in Australia) and even if you had touched on them coming through the train I was always a bit nervous
E Ink is good for some uses, but it is context dependent!