One thing I’ve always noticed is that middle class and wealthy people will often ride the train, but rarely ride the bus. When I was in grad school in New York, my classmates and I all rode the subway on a near-daily basis. But I somehow almost never heard anyone mention a bus.
For people who feel skittish in the city about crime or harassment, a bus stop feels very exposed. Passing through a fare gate before boarding and getting to wait on a platform that is reserved for other paying riders makes a big difference in perceived safety.
An anecdote in favor: the MAX in Portland operates on proof-of-payment and has no fare gates, and if anything has an even worse reputation for safety than buses do among normies around Portland. Counter-example: BART is also suffering from a terrible reputation for safety right now and does have fare gates, so the Portland MAX anecdote may just be erroneous noise from the general attitude of urban fear-mongering up and down the west coast.
Interesting comments, bus stops certainly can leave people feeling exposed. In Toronto basically every rail station has a "dedicated waiting area" with cameras, good lighting an intercom etc. it's a helpful touch (and obviously also exists in other cities).
Hmm. It seems like the permanent nature of train infrastructure benefits the riding public in a number or ways. The poet Robert Frost described freedom as “being easy in harness.” This is an idea I grew up with. I wonder if this idea of freedom comprising acceptance of social norms is lost in the age of “my way or the highway” individualism, and explains why some people can appreciate a well made public feature while others think it pure evil.
Bus travel is usually beset by jerky movements, sudden stops caused by errant cars +/- pedestrians, & sharp corner taking at times. Whereas tracks limit train movement much more, for a much more comfortable experience.
One big difference between the two, is that on a train, one can get up, go to the toilet or go for a walk through the carriages or even to a buffet car, if there is one. On the train, you can read a book, have a meal on a longer journey, watch a video or many other things, that would be much harder to do on a bus. Overall, you can do many more things on a train then on a bus, the experience is much more pleasant and I often find that you can meet some very interesting people.
Indeed I think this is a really helpful byproduct of the smoother ride, which I think also reduces the sensation of motion and makes things feel faster.
Accessibility is also a huge part of it. Trains are going to have a lot more consistent (and predictable) experience for those using accessibility devices. As mentioned, stops are easier to navigate as well for blind / low vision.
It's cliched to say "trains are smoother" but it really is a huge and understated difference. I have to take the bus to work most days now and it's such a huge comfort penalty, both directly and in that it makes reading or sleeping on board pretty unpleasant.
It is with much regret that I have to agree with you. I love catching buses, but I hate catching buses. Some of these issues can be fixed with BRT, with nice stations for instance. Shout out here to my favourite busway station, QUT Kelvin Grove in Brisbane. I had a large chocolate chip cookie from the snack machine there while at work tonight. Sadly the drink machine was out of chocolate milk though. Actually, there’s another thought, reliability. If you want to catch a train it very rarely doesn’t show up at the correct time, at least in my experience in Brisbane. Buses however, at the mercy of traffic or such outside of busways, they often show up late, or even worse early. Even on busways they can be unreliable if part of the route is on public roads for example. It’s unsurprising then that buses often get such a bad reputation. They’re vital, two thirds of all transit trips in Brisbane are on buses, but I reckon they’re probably also the most unpopular way to travel. This is a very good topic I am now thinking too much about and making myself sad with. I love buses, gee they suck.
Done well buses can be super reliable, but it's sort of cultural imo - if you live in a place that deprioritizes buses - like most of the English speaking world the bus - train gap tends to be a lot bigger.
One thing that was really appreciated during the pandemic in KW about the LRT vs. city buses was the capacity: you can be spread out much further from other, "germy" passengers on trains with capacity for 30-year population growth, vs. buses that are a bit more cramped.
I kind of agree. As thomas mentioned, brt stops usually have nicer amenities and smoother ride quality (due to independent right of way). Also subways’ location underground can attract unsavory elements without property security (via enforcement personnel or critical mass). But, yes, what you mention about ride quality, reliability and pleasantness of waiting generally applies. Always felt at odds with the anti-rail bias of many academic urban planning departments.
As a kid I remember the Bus always beeing way to full after school and if you missed it you would have to wait 3h. It was never a pleasant experience. Always bumping into othe people. I've noticed it happens less even on crowded trains as they accelerate and decelerate much smoothe and not sending you flying into other people.
You covered most of the differences, but I'd like to point out that they aren't universal. I felt pretty stressed when riding MetroLink because the blue line had reduced service and the stations don't have great shelters.
Ah, spoken like a true Canadian. :) I mean let's face it, the subway systems in Canada -- as great as they are -- are very simple. Especially the Toronto Subway. Of course it is stress free to wait for the train -- you have very few options. (Although let's face it, the Toronto Subway is so frequent, waiting isn't really an issue.) In contrast the NYC subway is very complicated, with express and local trains, multiple levels, and a subway map that boggles the mind. Bring up the subject on a train and locals will offer their knowledge, only to get into a debate as to whether that is "the best way". In contrast, even the Toronto Streetcar system is relatively simple, as most of the trams follow a straightforward grid. There are places where you can mess up, but overall, most of the time you take the train headed the direction you want to go, and that is that.
Some bus systems are straightforward, but most aren't. They get rather complicated, and complication adds to stress. Agencies tend to put more money into their rail system, so their tend to be more niceties, but I'm used to having buses with the same information as the trains. If anything, the kiosks displaying the arrival time of the buses is more accurate than the one for the trains (although that is obviously a rarity in most cities). Once on the vehicle, both display the upcoming stop, although the train lists all of the stops. But again, that just goes to the overall simplicity of most rail lines. I suppose they could have maps of the route spread out on the bus, but since the bus could be used for multiple routes, that would be a mess.
I would say the biggest difference is with longer travel. I've ridden some very cushy buses when traveling between cities, but they pail in comparison to a train. With an intercity train you can get up, walk around, have a drink, and play a game of cards at a table, while facing the other person. You just can't do that even with the nicest of buses. With travel inside the city, there is not much difference between buses and trains. Some of it is image, of course -- infrequent or ignorant transit riders tend to gravitate towards trains (just as they gravitate towards free circulators). But in general I would say it varies more per agency and per route than per mode. I'm used to catching buses that run every ten minutes or so. There is a nice bus shelter, and the stops with a lot of buses have kiosks showing the expected arrival time of each bus. In contrast, in some cities they have trains that run every half hour. I don't care how pretty that train is, that sucks.
One thing I’ve always noticed is that middle class and wealthy people will often ride the train, but rarely ride the bus. When I was in grad school in New York, my classmates and I all rode the subway on a near-daily basis. But I somehow almost never heard anyone mention a bus.
For people who feel skittish in the city about crime or harassment, a bus stop feels very exposed. Passing through a fare gate before boarding and getting to wait on a platform that is reserved for other paying riders makes a big difference in perceived safety.
An anecdote in favor: the MAX in Portland operates on proof-of-payment and has no fare gates, and if anything has an even worse reputation for safety than buses do among normies around Portland. Counter-example: BART is also suffering from a terrible reputation for safety right now and does have fare gates, so the Portland MAX anecdote may just be erroneous noise from the general attitude of urban fear-mongering up and down the west coast.
Interesting comments, bus stops certainly can leave people feeling exposed. In Toronto basically every rail station has a "dedicated waiting area" with cameras, good lighting an intercom etc. it's a helpful touch (and obviously also exists in other cities).
Hmm. It seems like the permanent nature of train infrastructure benefits the riding public in a number or ways. The poet Robert Frost described freedom as “being easy in harness.” This is an idea I grew up with. I wonder if this idea of freedom comprising acceptance of social norms is lost in the age of “my way or the highway” individualism, and explains why some people can appreciate a well made public feature while others think it pure evil.
Bus travel is usually beset by jerky movements, sudden stops caused by errant cars +/- pedestrians, & sharp corner taking at times. Whereas tracks limit train movement much more, for a much more comfortable experience.
One big difference between the two, is that on a train, one can get up, go to the toilet or go for a walk through the carriages or even to a buffet car, if there is one. On the train, you can read a book, have a meal on a longer journey, watch a video or many other things, that would be much harder to do on a bus. Overall, you can do many more things on a train then on a bus, the experience is much more pleasant and I often find that you can meet some very interesting people.
Indeed I think this is a really helpful byproduct of the smoother ride, which I think also reduces the sensation of motion and makes things feel faster.
Accessibility is also a huge part of it. Trains are going to have a lot more consistent (and predictable) experience for those using accessibility devices. As mentioned, stops are easier to navigate as well for blind / low vision.
Yep, and honestly they reduce the need to be as careful for able bodied folks as well stepping up or watching the street.
It's cliched to say "trains are smoother" but it really is a huge and understated difference. I have to take the bus to work most days now and it's such a huge comfort penalty, both directly and in that it makes reading or sleeping on board pretty unpleasant.
The impact to reading / going on a phone is huge, like being in a car, I personally cannot do it. No problem on a train.
It is with much regret that I have to agree with you. I love catching buses, but I hate catching buses. Some of these issues can be fixed with BRT, with nice stations for instance. Shout out here to my favourite busway station, QUT Kelvin Grove in Brisbane. I had a large chocolate chip cookie from the snack machine there while at work tonight. Sadly the drink machine was out of chocolate milk though. Actually, there’s another thought, reliability. If you want to catch a train it very rarely doesn’t show up at the correct time, at least in my experience in Brisbane. Buses however, at the mercy of traffic or such outside of busways, they often show up late, or even worse early. Even on busways they can be unreliable if part of the route is on public roads for example. It’s unsurprising then that buses often get such a bad reputation. They’re vital, two thirds of all transit trips in Brisbane are on buses, but I reckon they’re probably also the most unpopular way to travel. This is a very good topic I am now thinking too much about and making myself sad with. I love buses, gee they suck.
Done well buses can be super reliable, but it's sort of cultural imo - if you live in a place that deprioritizes buses - like most of the English speaking world the bus - train gap tends to be a lot bigger.
One thing that was really appreciated during the pandemic in KW about the LRT vs. city buses was the capacity: you can be spread out much further from other, "germy" passengers on trains with capacity for 30-year population growth, vs. buses that are a bit more cramped.
It's just more room to provide a better layout too!
I kind of agree. As thomas mentioned, brt stops usually have nicer amenities and smoother ride quality (due to independent right of way). Also subways’ location underground can attract unsavory elements without property security (via enforcement personnel or critical mass). But, yes, what you mention about ride quality, reliability and pleasantness of waiting generally applies. Always felt at odds with the anti-rail bias of many academic urban planning departments.
Despite the way streetcars are operated in Toronto, it's also why I'd always still prefer to be on one than a bus.
As a kid I remember the Bus always beeing way to full after school and if you missed it you would have to wait 3h. It was never a pleasant experience. Always bumping into othe people. I've noticed it happens less even on crowded trains as they accelerate and decelerate much smoothe and not sending you flying into other people.
Memories are powerful
You covered most of the differences, but I'd like to point out that they aren't universal. I felt pretty stressed when riding MetroLink because the blue line had reduced service and the stations don't have great shelters.
Ah, spoken like a true Canadian. :) I mean let's face it, the subway systems in Canada -- as great as they are -- are very simple. Especially the Toronto Subway. Of course it is stress free to wait for the train -- you have very few options. (Although let's face it, the Toronto Subway is so frequent, waiting isn't really an issue.) In contrast the NYC subway is very complicated, with express and local trains, multiple levels, and a subway map that boggles the mind. Bring up the subject on a train and locals will offer their knowledge, only to get into a debate as to whether that is "the best way". In contrast, even the Toronto Streetcar system is relatively simple, as most of the trams follow a straightforward grid. There are places where you can mess up, but overall, most of the time you take the train headed the direction you want to go, and that is that.
Some bus systems are straightforward, but most aren't. They get rather complicated, and complication adds to stress. Agencies tend to put more money into their rail system, so their tend to be more niceties, but I'm used to having buses with the same information as the trains. If anything, the kiosks displaying the arrival time of the buses is more accurate than the one for the trains (although that is obviously a rarity in most cities). Once on the vehicle, both display the upcoming stop, although the train lists all of the stops. But again, that just goes to the overall simplicity of most rail lines. I suppose they could have maps of the route spread out on the bus, but since the bus could be used for multiple routes, that would be a mess.
I would say the biggest difference is with longer travel. I've ridden some very cushy buses when traveling between cities, but they pail in comparison to a train. With an intercity train you can get up, walk around, have a drink, and play a game of cards at a table, while facing the other person. You just can't do that even with the nicest of buses. With travel inside the city, there is not much difference between buses and trains. Some of it is image, of course -- infrequent or ignorant transit riders tend to gravitate towards trains (just as they gravitate towards free circulators). But in general I would say it varies more per agency and per route than per mode. I'm used to catching buses that run every ten minutes or so. There is a nice bus shelter, and the stops with a lot of buses have kiosks showing the expected arrival time of each bus. In contrast, in some cities they have trains that run every half hour. I don't care how pretty that train is, that sucks.
(e) BC Transit
https://www.bctransit.com/documents/1529709708571#:~:text
https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2021TRAN0015-000356
(f). 2004 ( May 14 ) Article in The Buzzer about LED pilot project by TransLink ( that was never implemented) for better lighting.
https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/rider-guide/buzzer-archives/2000s/2004/buzzer_2004_05_14.pdf#view=fitH
(g) Bus Shelters Images:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=bus+shelters+to+protect+against+the+sun&first=1&cw=1903&ch=937
(h) Security Lighting for Transit Passenger Facilities by APTA
https://www.apta.com/wp-content/uploads/Standards_Documents/APTA-SS-SIS-RP-001-10.pdf
(i) Better Bus Stops by LA Metro Transit
https://www.metrotransit.org/better-bus-stops
(j) 28 Features for Bus Stops:
https://builderbaron.com/bus-stop-features/
(k) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_stop
(l) https://www.masstransitmag.com/technology/facilities/shelters-benches-and-equipment/article/12168860/best-practices-enhancing-shelter-and-stop-amenities-for-riders
(m) https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/street-design-elements/transit-streets/bus-stops/
(a). Alon Levy about cost + convenience for riders
https://pedestrianobservations.com/2023/05/19/quick-note-los-angeles-spends-50000-per-bus-shelter/
https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/04/12/little-things-that-matter-bus-shelter/
(b) Burnaby NOW about what the City of Burnaby is doing
https://www.burnabynow.com/local-news/burnaby-wants-to-install-50-new-bus-shelters-by-december-6833979
(c). Reddit r/transit posts: shelter for $8000, free benches
https://www.reddit.com/r/transit/comments/13o930v/new_bus_stop_shelters_in_my_town/?
https://www.reddit.com/r/transit/comments/13or6j5/las_la_sombrita_represents_everything_wrong_with/
https://www.reddit.com/r/urbandesign/comments/ws50t8/a_denver_man_saw_too_many_people_standing_at_bus/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-bus-stop-bench-1.6823941
(d). Streetsblog LA post + SLATE post + Better Cities
https://la.streetsblog.org/2023/05/19/what-l-a-s-pilot-la-sombrita-shade-light-structure-does-and-doesnt-do/
https://slate.com/business/2023/05/la-sombrita-shade-bus-stop-los-angeles-kounkuey-background-history.html
https://bettercities.substack.com/p/las-la-sombrita-represents-everything
https://twitter.com/Kounkuey/status/1659256781305171968?s=20
4. Bus stops: Shelters.Benches , Lighting etc.
Transit passengers need proper amenities at bus stops:
Bus stop amenities can consist of benches, shelter, proper signage, garbage cans, appropriate sidewalks and ramps, and proper lighting
In Metro Vancouver TransLink has failed us.
BC Transit is working to get more shelters see 4/(e)
We need a bench at every bus stop and a shelter where there is room. Lighting should be adequate .
Shelters should protect riders against the weather ,rain,snow, sunshine ..
In some cities they provide charging stations for your devices.
Most of the costs could be covered by paid advertising on shelters and benches.